Frontier Podcast Episode 3: Dovey Wan
This is the transcript for the third episode of The Frontier Podcast with Dovey Wan, Founder of Primitive Ventures, hosted by Tom Mitchelhill and SpaceComputer CoFounder Daniel Bar.
Welcome back to the Frontier Podcast, the show where we interview the pioneers pushing technology and humankind into the future and going deep on the original cypherpunk values of cryptography, digital sovereignty, and the limits of human ingenuity. I'm your host, Tom Mitchell-Hill, and today I'll be joined by my co-host, Daniel Barr, the co-founder of Space Computer. Thanks for joining me, Daniel.
Cheers, Tom. Awesome to get on the pod again. Today we are speaking with Dovey Wan.
Dovey is a multi-cycle crypto pioneer, having been actively involved in the crypto space since 2017. She's the founder of Primitive Crypto, a frontier prop investment firm that is explicitly not a VC firm, but still cuts VC checks. Dovey has been standing at the frontier of crypto and tech for over a decade, working as the managing director of DHVC, or Danhua Capital, a VC firm focused on enterprise, consumer, health, and fintech sectors.
She boasts an extremely impressive record of investments in and contributions to the crypto and blockchain industry, featuring projects like the OG DeFi Kyber Network, Cosmos, Tendermint, Handshake, Blockfolio, Starkware, Optimism, GMX, Athena, just to name a few. Welcome to the Frontier Podcast, Dovey. We're extremely grateful to have you on the show.
Happy to be here. Yeah, so it definitely feels like a boomer in this space. So the mental aging is insane.
I think that's why probably I spend much more time just really caring about my own health and longevity and all that. And then the other thing is that every cycle I have seen pretty tragic, just a very, it's a very tragic death from friends around us. So I think that's why I think it is not about, because I know when it comes to crypto, people always talk about, oh, just getting rich and pre-rich and post-rich, this kind of vibe.
But at the end of the day, it's not about being ultra high net worth. So it is not about being ultra high net worth. And it's more about being ultra anti-fragility.
That's also what tying back to the original cyberpunk spirit. So it's about anti-fragility. It is not about having that much money in your bank account.
Yeah. That's interesting. Talk to me more about anti-fragility.
What do you mean by that? And how does that link in with the cyberpunk ethos in your eyes? Yeah. And when it comes to anti-fragility, right? And so I have been sharing this with a lot of my friends. And so you guys have seen what happened to Jack Ma.
And you have seen what happened, all this major attack on all of the publicly visible billionaires out there, right? And so I think being a very stealth mode billionaire has a much higher degree of freedom than being a publicly visible billionaire out there. And also imagine in the future, I have this mental model for many years. And imagine there will be a major scientific discovery that can probably invent the same level of nuclear weapon.
And so it can be whatever things out there. Or it can be the same level of CRISPR, right? And so that kind of things that can bioengineer your baby and all that. And so supposedly, the inventor of that thing, in order to just really keep that thing under stealth mode, or really just make it publicly open, but without revealing much of the inventor's identity.
And so I really think in the future, once Bitcoin hit $1 million US dollar, and then we should have this Nakamoto Award. And we should have the Nakamoto Award to really award that. So to really award anonymous inventors, and so the anonymous scientists, and then also all these anonymous social journalists.
And then so who can really dig into a very in-depth investigated, can really dig into this super dark investigation of certain social phenomena, right? And so that's how we can make sure these things can have the level of the, so that's how we can make sure the things that have the same level of the free. So the same level of the degree of freedom, then potentially we can also ensure the actual human liberty. So maybe to kind of try and paraphrase about the values of cypherpunk, a part of the anti-fragility is that someone can maintain their comfortable private life, rather than being under the scrutiny of constant attacks by haters or authorities, et cetera.
So like you kind of want to get that individual self-sovereignty, and that future is something that crypto definitely enables, whether it's like Nakamoto, the original inventor, or any other aspects of being self-sovereign. For me, for example, it's self-sufficiency on a farm, but basically any other aspect of taking care of your liberties. Is that kind of like the direction you're thinking you're taking it, Dovey? I think that's definitely a key part of that.
And then also, I think there's not a coincidence that many of us who are early in crypto are also very into longevity as well. Because the health thing was also among the pioneers in cryogenics, right? And then also, since the inception, the cypherpunk movement and crypto people, and we all have centered around two core beliefs. And one is to build these immutable ledgers to form the immutable truth.
And the other one is also to issue a matter-solving asset, so to really empower these individuals. So I think these are all interconnected with each other. And then also the muscle itself is like a human organ that has the best antifragility traits, right? Because the more we challenge it, the stronger it gets.
When people get wealthy, they seek for eternal life, which is longevity, and space, basically, that conquers more places. So that's maybe a part of the pursuit for immortality and the vastness of space, right? I feel like the space pursuit, I think it's... OK, so I probably hold a different opinion when it comes to the space and just get off the earth kind of pursuit. And I think just that the earth currently feels very, very zero-sum, right? And all the things that are happening out there just feel extremely zero-sum.
And the geopolitics environment currently is totally different than 50 years ago. And I think the politicians nowadays, their job is not to form consensus, right? And having a consensus has basically become contrarian. And then also the middle class is fading.
And the middle class is basically fading everywhere. And it's not just in the US. And you have seen what happened to Europe and the fertility rate.
Korea now is at 0.8%. So theoretically speaking, probably in 100 years, there won't be any Koreans out there, which is crazy. So that's why I think the earth feels pretty zero-sum. And we don't have the same aspiration than before, especially when it comes to Gen Z and Gen Alpha.
I was just reading a paper, I think a few days ago, really shocked me. So the Gen Alpha, Gen Alpha is just like, they are not even hitting puberty, right? Like Gen Alpha goes, so they spend over 5 billion in Sephora That's extremely zero-sum to me.
And so why consumerism, so the consumerism has progressed so far that they basically just stuff all the kids down to the throat. I think the space pursuit is just like, the earth feels very, very zero-sum. And we just want to get out of it.
And then also that can set the aspiration value anchor for the next generation. And I think that's why many of us are very, very into the pursuit of space. I have a question there.
Do you think that we can kind of balance the pursuit of space with a non-zero-sum kind of planetary arc? Or do you think it's kind of like a, from your perspective, do you think that space is like the next frontier that we need to move into to fix things on earth? Or is space the next frontier that we go to because things on earth are cooked? I think the space pursuit, well, like the inspiration or the aspiration for many of the space entrepreneurs that I've known, and it's because why earth feels like zero-sum. And I think just practically speaking though, space, there's so many things that you can conquer in space because it's like a blue ocean, right? So it's like a blue ocean and there's not much competition. So for instance, the current international space station, there's no any competitor to the current international space station until just two years ago when China launched their own version, right? The Tianlong station was formally completed in, I think, in late 2022, right? And so operationally, the Chinese space agency right now is running their own regular six-month crew rotation, and which was never happened until just three years ago.
So there's no competition at all when it comes to the international space station. And then also what we have seen, just the whole trend is that, I think that founding space is something just extremely high-tech, so like extremely high capex. So many of this government and then trying to shift towards a more private version of the Leo destinations.
So things can have more commercial stations and then just a government-only asset. So from this perspective, I think this is a lot of parallel to the early stage of internet, right? Internet also started as a DARPA thing, as a government thing. So I think just purely from a market perspective, and then so we have seen the cracks has been opened up.
And then so the government is leaning towards funding, just being the customer of all the commercial company rather than just doing their own thing. So I think just both theoretically, just inspirationally, theoretically, and probably speaking, so the space is large enough for all the new entrepreneur, and especially from private sector to pursue. I would say though that with space, it's definitely booming, but it's still extremely early, and it's still extremely capital intensive, and there's a really long way to go.
It's super exciting, but I think that it's one of those things, like I've been in other technologies, whether it's quantum computing that is starting to get to commercialization or crypto that we're almost 20 years since Satoshi with space. Launches are getting more affordable, but still big structures, like you mentioned the space station or VAST that is building an alternative space station, and space tourism and other stuff. These are still things that are very, very early on, and then still we're looking at launching small satellites and things that service Earth are still quite relevant, and part of also what we're doing with space computer is that, and I think there's going to be quite a lot of foundational stages before we get to this multi-planetary species and stuff, which obviously is part of the sci-fi objective that inspires everyone.
I think what you said a few steps is, now we have SpaceX. SpaceX is a logistic company for the space, so once that Starship is there, and I think the payload cost is going to down probably 100x, and once we can lower down the true order of magnitude on the payload cost, and so we can potentially to build the real estate in the space, especially around Leo. Leo first, and then Moon, and then Mars, this is how the progression is going to be, but first we need to have the logistic company and also the real estate company out there.
I think when it comes to space computer, space computer is not a physical infrastructure company, and space computer, my mental model for space computer in the future, it's kind of like Starlink, but without a satellite, and also it's like a Starlink for the in-space computation. Daniel, do you think that analogy clicks? I would say maybe something like Starlink would be built with space computer, but I'm thinking about it more as a settlement and smart contract platform, so more like a Bitcoin slash Ethereum that is space-native, and then on top of which you can start having the space-native economy, some of which could be the communication layer, which is a Starlink equivalent, but interesting because initially we were not planning to do much hardware, but we realized that even though there's a lot of more offerings and solutions available, we still need to do some of the hardware specs, and it's now the missions that we're working on is hardware that we will ultimately be engaged on sending satellites to orbit, and we're looking at it as kind of like the boot node validator set that are initially there, but ultimately we would want to include more satellite providers, and whether it's a communication providers, imaging, other services, so I don't know if purely the Starlink, but maybe a Starlink layer two or something like this could be good. Yeah, so I remember in the early days, and we were talking about what is the position for space computer, and yeah, so like a very straightforward and can be a little bit lousy mental model is like DP in the sky, right? And it's like a DP in the sky and leveraging the existing onboard satellite, like to leverage the existing onboard satellite, so the onboard satellite compute for like, so either for security guarantee, because it can be far beyond what like, so like it can be far beyond what like the earth, like trust the hardware can offer, and then also like it can be a really good, like resilient, like hardware in the area of this rising geopolitics like tension, and so like that's basically the ultimate anti-fragility play.
Yeah, root of trust in space, so it's more secure than TEs on earth, and we've seen the TE fails a few times over recently, so yeah, like more and more that there's nuance in how the security model for having the physical isolation in space, it's becoming interesting for people to pick at space computer, yeah. As the kind of non-technical guy sitting here, I do have a question for both of you that I'm interested in. How, because Daniel, you were talking about the fact that, you know, we are still, it is still incredibly like early for space industry, we're seeing kind of launch costs be brought way down, which means that we can expect to see a lot more stuff get into space.
How quickly do you see like industry, commerce, and business being conducted in space, and to what size? It's kind of a general question, but directionally, how much stuff do you think we're going to start seeing like low earth orbit, but then also actually moving out to either the moon or to Mars? Just general broad kind of scope question here. So maybe we can look at the current status as a way to extrapolate. Today, on average, SpaceX launches a Falcon 9 mission, I think about every second day, roughly.
So last year they launched 7,500 satellites for Starlink alone, and then the excess capacity is typically sold to other missions, which is missions similar to what we're launching with. So if you're having today, so 90% of what you have currently in orbit, more than 90% is Starlink. This is something that I don't know, like some people out of space sector don't know, but majority of what actually orbits above us in the sky is Starlink.
Everything else is like small potatoes compared to that. And as Dovey mentioned, SpaceX is kind of like the logistics company in that way, but in some respects, I look at it a bit like Apple is the iPhone company. So SpaceX is the Starlink company that became like the product that is championed, and they have also the confidential equivalent for the government sector.
Blue Origin is getting into the launch business. The more the launch programs are going to be solved, the more you'll start seeing huge boost, probably like tenfold of where it is today in LEO. And then actually even before Moon, there's high Earth orbit, there's a mesospace.
So there's still quite a lot to uncover for things that are purely servicing Earth. I think that we're probably like multi-decades away from exhausting this. Like there's still plenty.
It's a blue ocean, like Dovey mentioned. When will we get to Moon and Mars? To be honest, I feel that it's one of those things that it's super fascinating and inspiring, but I'm not going to hold my breath on like, okay, we're going to solve it in the next couple of years. It's like this is going to be a pretty big effort to get a colony on Mars and all these things.
It's not clear yet how. It's like, of course, we're all excited about it, but it's going to take some time. But yeah, I mean, Dovey, you've been very interested recently in other space.
I know that you've got into other space in your portfolio. So what's your take on the rate of development and kind of trajectory as a whole? Yeah, so I feel like that's one thing that people are very, probably just like the space is still very, like the industry is still tiny. And tiny in the sense of how many people are really paying attention to that, other than SpaceX and a few other space, other than a few big other space commercial companies.
And so no one is actually paying much attention to that. But just to give you like a number wise, right? And then the number wise, and we already, because the only unit economic metrics that we have to pay attention to is how much cost per kilogram, because you have to send stuff to the space. And so that's just like boils down to the single unit economic.
The single unit economic metrics. And so like the cost currently per kilogram when it comes to launch, it used to be around like 80,000 per kilogram. And now down to just like 2000 per kilogram.
So like the cost itself already like down more than like 90%. And then also some of these like very heavy lift vehicles and can probably down the cost down to 100,000 ish. And so for a heavy lift.
So I think we have already like progress a ton from there. And it's just like, it's basically like the shitcoin cost. So it's basically like a shitcoin price.
I have been just like joking with my space, Porco company founders that they're just like driving down the cost of like per kilogram, per like KOL. And then when it comes to like the shitcoin founders, the old coin founders or the new coin founders, they're basically driving down their own token price per like 80% every cycle. And it's kind of similar when it comes to the space industry.
It's like every four to five years. And then so like the payload cost like going down 80%. So that's why I'm very bullish on that, because that's like a good reduction.
It is not like my coins going down, right? And I think like when it comes to Starship, I'm not, I don't have like a number at the top of my head, but like what can drive further cost reduction, like when it comes to the payload cost? One is the reusability, like especially when it comes to booster, like stages. And then also the larger payload capacity, so we can have like economic scale. And then also like Daniel has mentioned, we can have a higher launch cadence, right? And then so then we can just like spreading out like all like the fixed cost and like some cost to just like a cohort of like clients.
And then also there's can be like mass production, which is like the manufacturing itself, because the problem with all this like government-founding rocket company or just a government-founding rocket or like space station initiative, the problem of that is like they just outsource everything. So they just outsource everything to everyone else, especially for the U.S. And like why China can launch like Tianlong, like China's own version like space station in such a short period of time is that China basically built everything in-house. So they just import like all the raw material and then just like build everything in-house.
I think that's what the competence, so like if we can try to make a market of it, right? Because that's like the beauty of like private sector. So like the private sector is always like down to like cost optimization, right? So it's a productivity-centric. So when it comes to this, all this public sector like funding projects, it's just like, it's bureaucracy-centric.
So that's why I'm pretty bullish on that when it comes to the next four years or like five years for the next space cycle, because we have the crypto cycle and we also have the space cycle. And like space cycle is usually like four to six years. So like six to eight years-ish, yeah.
And so it basically took like space that's like 20 years like to really ship their first like real human in the rocket. So yeah, so I think when it comes to like Starship in the future and like the Starship will probably cost as little as like 10 million per flight in the future. So it's extremely affordable, yeah.
Yeah, maybe Tom about your comment on when will we see a space native economy? I think we're starting to see the buds of it. Like for example, you have companies that are dealing with monitoring at a relatively high resolution of space objects. And these things are only possible today when you're able to launch a camera onto a satellite at a relatively cheaply price compared to what you'd be able to do 10 years ago.
You would already have these solutions 10 years ago but it was only for like government and low res and like low frequency. Now you have more and more things that are starting to service it. Also because data payloads from earth to space are actually still quite expensive.
So it's not only about launching the actual satellite, right? You also need to communicate with it. You have higher latency. If it's low earth orbit, it actually moves around.
So you need to connect either through ground station or alternative networks like what we're doing. And then if you need upgradability for the software or you need to download data to analyze it, process and then make some decision based on those data. So you do start seeing more and more solutions that are starting to be built natively for space like to build software that essentially runs edge compute and you can make decisions based on AI models deployed on the satellites without having to transport the data and make a decision and do it.
Talking about that, yeah. Daniel, have you seen like Jensen mentioned that he wants to send a data center in the space? Yeah, the space-based data center has been a hot meta for quite a while. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right, right, yeah.
Actually, there's the first H100, I think with the star cloud guys recently launched, I think just a few days ago. Oh, cool. Yeah, so I think we are seeing a convergence of this amorphous law like coming from all different angles, right? Like we have the scaling law when it comes to AI and then we have, I think amorphous law is still in tech for probably for compute, but I'm not sure like up to like three nanometer.
And then we also have seen this amorphous law drop for payload cost when it comes to like space launch. And then so like if like Starship gonna be there, so like once we have like vehicles like Starship and like the payload cost gonna be probably like less than, like probably gonna be less 100 like US dollar per kilogram. And then so like that's another like 10x reduction.
Yeah, so we have seen like the amorphous law just say convergence, like there's a major convergence of amorphous law and this scaling law from all different angles. So that's why I'm extremely bullish for like all different kind of like space application. Bullish on the space economy and the multi-planetary future of our species.
Let's go. Dovey, I did wanna ask you, I wanted to zoom out a little bit and I wanted to talk a little bit about your background in crypto. And then also like, I don't know how you got kind of your interest peaked in space as well, but I'd love to start with like, what got you into crypto? I understand that you were like PM at eBay for a while and there's a bit of crossover with like Chris Dixon coming in when his company acquired eBay.
Can you run me through like your background, how you got started and why you decided to stay in the crypto space as well? Let me just try to recollect my memory. Okay, now it's 2025, right? Okay, yeah, so I finished my college, so I finished my master's school from Carnegie Mellon in 2011. And so like after that, so I moved to Bay Area and I started my career in eBay.
Yeah, so being like a PM there, like being like a product manager there and then just looking into all this, because I'm a huge fan of marketplace, so like marketplace, like you said, the whole design of marketplaces. And I remember there was like 2012, probably 2012. Yeah, so probably late 2012.
And then so that's when my manager back in the day, and then so he asked me to do this compact analysis on the other marketplaces. And that's when I discovered like Zucrow and I got so obsessed about it and because it's peer-to-peer, right? So it's basically like Craigslist, but with a, so it's kind of like Craigslist, but it's more than Craigslist. And so I got very obsessed with it and then like that's when I discovered Bitcoin and like all that.
And also the other coincidence, like the other coincidence is just my mom, like all the Asian parents. And then so she wanted me to buy property in Bay Area and like San Francisco, but it's extremely hard to get the money out of China. And because when it comes to mainland China and there's only like 50K US dollar capital, so there's only like Forex, so there's only like 50K Forex exchange, like quota per individual.
So it's extremely hard to get money out. Yeah, so- Is that 50K per year or like per month? It's like 50K per year per person. Yeah.
50 a year? Yeah, it is due to case and it's just like getting like more strict. And also like Korean has the same vote as well. Like if you guys think like Korean is a completely open capitalism, whatever, it's not a case.
It's like every-
Nations day, so they always have to control capital flag. And so like currently has this capital control as well. So that's why we can see all the country premium on the local current exchange, because, you know, like the liquidity is not it is not fluid.
Right. And this is a small interjection. This is a very interesting insight on the fact that some people think that in developed countries, crypto is not useful because the financial system already works.
And this is a great example for where Korea and China, which are sure, China has like more more like poverty in some faraway province. But generally, like quite advanced countries still has really interesting, unique utility for for crypto that is quite widely used. Yeah.
And so like that's when like towards the end of like 2012 and then. Yeah. So me and my parents and we just use like Bitcoin for decide just like moving money out.
And and yeah, but I wish like I wish I didn't buy the house, to be honest. And then but like, who knows? Yeah. So like back in the day is that we so we bought a Bitcoin from like BTC, BTC, BTC, China, and then also on like Taobao.
It's I think like the fun thing about it. So like the so it's all this actual P2P is that the actual P2P market. So I have to test someone on Taobao because back in the day, Bitcoin was listed under this virtual is that do you remember back in the day? If you guys want to play some online game or some whatever, like you have to put up your phone charge, right? And then so Bitcoin was listed under the same category of all these virtual is that virtual things is that virtual digital goods on Taobao.
And then so we either have to do that or I would just buy BTC from BTC China. And then and then immediately we'll short a BTC and then move to like Bitstamp and then just exchange to like US dollar and then like Bitstamp back in the day. I remember that they can only do like banking wire.
And so, yeah, so like there were some 2012, like 2012, 2013. I forgot. And anyway, so fast forward.
And 2013 was my first cycle when it comes to this price plummet down. And yeah, just like anyone, I really got into this. I like because I like the dopamine is real, right? Because you can see things like just like freaking pump like reacting a day.
Yeah, just like any just like anybody else. And then like that's my first like crazy cycle. And then and also I remember that was in the day many, many engineers and just that early Bay Area crypto people around us.
And then so we were just like day traders. And so you always have to lose your money in your first cycle and then be the day. So just be the day trader.
And so like that, you said the pattern I have seen over and over. And it's like every cycle. So is that every cycle, all the new firms, like all my new friends that came into crypto.
So they always have to do this day trading thing. So it's just like trading different things. Right.
So just like back in the day, we were trading Bitcoin, all the colored coins. And then all this like quote unquote fair launch POW coin back in the day, because there's many of these POW coins. And then later cycle is just like NFT.
Like NFT is actually colored coin on steroids, right? And so there's so many nice things already that can echo back to the original, like the colored coin. Because when it comes to NFT, it's just like we have like more metadata and like things like that. And that is on Ethereum, like better liquidity.
And then last cycle, we have like BRC20, like that's basically like another version of like Bitcoin colored coin, right? And so there's a lot of this similarity over cycles. But what is it? NAP, what are you referring to? NAP or what's the acronym? What was the acronym? It was BRC20s. Yeah, so like BRC20s.
It was like shit coins on Bitcoin. Sorry, the Bitcoin token standard. I'm sorry, that was an offensive terminology.
Yeah. And yeah, so like just a back to back to eBay Day. Yeah.
So like eBay Day was just like, it's a really good, like eBay Day, like because it's a marketplace. And so I found out, so I found out about Ciro. And then so Ciro got me into like, like the Ciro itself is, it's also pretty cool.
So I'm not sure you guys like still have access. Well, like we don't have access, but it is carefully designed like for illegal transaction, which is, I think, which is a very eye opening for me. And then so that's also like that's also probably back to our earlier conversation on.
Right. And then so like the ultimate, like the absolute freedom can be also scary. So you don't you probably don't want absolute freedom.
And so that can be very metaphysical conversation on like what level of freedom you want and then like how to design the protocol carefully and like not to not to really abuse the level of freedom and privacy. Yeah. So I don't have like so I don't have a good answer on that.
And I think just like in like a parallel universe. And then so let's say the government is extremely friendly to things like Silk Road. And I think we will have this fentanyl, this like this like this like crazy fentanyl like disaster probably like 10 years earlier.
Right. So like now we have this fentanyl problem in San Francisco and you still see like fentanyl fall, like all the fentanyl, like all the fentanyl banter. And yeah.
So like that also got me thinking on like like regulation, like even though the cypherpunk spirit is a very anti-regulation. But I still think for the average people and they don't have control, like they don't have control and then they don't have like self-discipline. And also they don't have like a know how to really distinguish what's good and what is bad.
And so, yeah. So like how to actually protect them. Right.
And then so that's also like it's not just in crypto. Like if we look at like consumer Internet, like Zuckerberg and like Zuckerberg has a very strict rule for like his own kids when it comes to like screen time. But the thing is, he is building like the biggest like time sink and like do scrolling like machine for all the other kids.
Right. And so I think that when it comes to consumer Internet, like it's also the same thing that all the founders are following. They said to become like drug dealers, like drug dealers, like ethos.
You said don't get high on your own drug. It's just maybe maybe to interject there about the freedom principles, like a mental model that I have. And I think it's very relevant for your like how you're trying to associate it to the cypherpunk and crypto freedom is something that we all aspire for.
But freedom without discipline is chaos. Yeah. And you basically if you eat bad food and stuff, your health will decay.
Freedom with discipline is prosperity, which is, let's say, take the example of Singapore. Right. Like there is liberties and stuff, but there's also strong discipline.
And then it becomes a place that is prosperous. I think when you're designing a protocol, the protocol equally, on the one hand, you want the lowest level of the protocol to be as credibly neutral as you can. Like you want to have Bitcoin, Ethereum, SpaceComputer protocol, whatever, something that is accessible permissionlessly.
On the other hand, you want to aspire for code is law, that it's something that is not not possible to tamper with. And also you want to have services that are built on top that are able to exclude the bad guys. Let's say you don't want to have a North Korean hackers or or Iranian regime getting some funds that are illicit in order to bypass and somehow get wealthy.
Right. So it's like it's a question of how to create the rule set that actually serve as the greater good rather than try to think about it as anarchy that actually leads nowhere. I think that anyone with a little bit more sophisticated thinking understands that ultimately it's not just about anarchy.
It's also about what's the greater good here from a permissionless technology and cypherpunk values, free speech, etc. At like a psychological level as well. It's like ultimate freedom is also anxiety as well, if you think about it, because there's no if there's no optionality, it's just like being dropped in the desert and being told we'll go a certain way.
It's like, which way? So, you know, technically you're free. But if there's no clear cut kind of direction or directionality for you, then it's just overwhelming. Yes.
Just to add on to that, there's a very interesting survey that arranged marriage, like the perception of the level of perceived happiness is much, much higher when it comes to arranged marriage. So I think that can also echo Tom's point really well. Yeah, this is going so far on a tangent, but I did see an interesting thing with Palmer Luckey talking about this as well.
Like he was saying that this idea, this like much more like Western, like finding yourself, finding your partner, going on some like giant spiritual journey idea is just such a fallacy because he's like, well, you know, for thousands of years, humans had very, very happy, healthy relationships. And they typically knew maybe several hundred, maybe a few thousand people if they lived even in a large city. But like that was it.
Like your actual limit of people that you would meet in your lifetime was the town that you grew up in. Maybe you'd go over somewhere else. But yeah, he was like, it's a it's a trap.
Anyway, back to back to the subject at hand. I am quite interested in. So you've gone from eBay PM.
You've used Bitcoin to get out of China. You're obsessed with the design of like Silk Road, peer to peer marketplaces. Walk me through the process of founding Primitive.
What what led you to think, I want to start like a prop capital firm that also does like VC adjacent activities? Yeah, there was like there was a 2018 bear market. It was pretty deep in the twenty twenty twenty eighteen bear market. So me and my retired co-founder, Aaron Notcher.
So we have been working together for like many projects together. And then and I think like like twenty seventeen, because that twenty seventeen was like my first actual cycle as an investor. And and then but then the day I was still handling all the other so like all the other investments of our firm.
And I think I also did like even investment on like the other sectors, like Fintech and marketplaces and autonomous driving, et cetera, et cetera. So for instance, we so like back at DHVC, I so I led investment in like Figure, Moneylion, blah, blah, blah. And like they all went public.
And also like did like Series A, like just a personal check into Flatsport and a few other like really big like SaaS company. Also, I also did like Rippling and like Series A, like SaaS. And so I think I did OK as a just like a general tech investor.
But like crypto is the only sector I'm just like just that every is that every day I woke up like when I see my portfolio. Right. Because I have like so many different portfolio is that you go if you go to like a restaurant and then you will naturally gravitate towards like a certain manual that you want.
And so it's like having a buffet, but you only want to eat certain things. Right. Like that's when you figure out, oh, I really like this food.
So that's what happened to me is that, OK, I woke up every day and then I look at my portfolio. There are so many different sectors. But I only so I only want to dig into what happened in my crypto portfolio.
And so like that's so like that's when I realized, hmm, I should probably just like drop the other things. And then I should probably just drop the other things because like the other things is just a very consuming and like a war meeting and all that. Right.
And so like, yeah. So like that's when when it comes to the twenty eighteen bear market. And so I'm like, yeah, so I really want to just drop all the other stuff and then just say like just like only in like crypto investment.
And then my retired co-founder, Edward Melcher, like he was one of the most like I would say like the most international and global individual I have seen. And he's a Jew and he's like a local like he born and raised in a local area here and and like grew up in Palo Alto. But like he can but like he can speak like fluent Chinese.
And and so he basically did his undergrad in like Peking University and then being the first undergrad in biology. Because if you want to learn biology as American in Chinese and then imagine the level of difficulty there. And so like like like he's my best friend.
And then so so like in twenty eighteen, like Aaron and I were like, yeah, he was working for Xiaolai, right? Before, from memory. So like he was working for Xiaolai and Xiaolai is considered as the godfather for like Chinese crypto. And so they basically own the entire supply chain of like crypto.
And so they own the biggest exchanges. So they own the biggest investment fund. And Xiaolai was also very instrumental in the whole education of like crypto and like Bitcoin and like China back in the day.
And so so like he's like a very like prominent teacher in general. So he's like a mentor for many of our generation back in the day. Yeah.
Anyway, so twenty eighteen bear market and like me and Aaron was like, yeah, so we should just do these things ourselves. And then we have enough money that we make from like the like the bull market in like twenty seventeen. And and then and I don't want to do anything other than crypto.
So like that's how Primitive started. Yeah. You were in the twenty eighteen like bear market.
You've done your prop fund stuff here. What was your experience with the twenty twenty like DeFi, DeFi summer? How did that go for you? Oh, like twenty twenty DeFi summer was, OK, let me think about this. I think we were farming everything.
And and then, yeah, Yen, Wi-Fi, whatever. And like I think the DeFi summer was like the DeFi summer sort of like the DeFi summer sort of like bring back a little bit of the Cypherpunk spirit because it's a relatively fair access. Right.
It's a relatively fair access. And then also like it's just OK. I remember back in the day in DeFi summer and like the smart counter security, like probably it's just like people are looking for a thrill, like because it was Covid, it was like lockdown.
And I remember we were looking into all the farms and then like one of my DeFi farmers, my team member, like he said something very, very it's like it's like, OK, so I would probably just speak out loud. So he was saying that aping into the farm without any smart contract security check is like having sex with a condom. Like that's when I learned about, oh, so why the thing becomes such a big thing.
And then people just say aping all the farms and then without any security check is like during lockdown. And so especially for guys and guys look for a thrill. And that's when I realized there's definitely different psychological like it's like the psychological is a psychological level.
Men and women are designed differently. Right. And like currently, like there's no physical war for men to fight.
So that's why they have to have some other outlet for their testosterone, like either Memecoin trading, like like unsecure, like smart contract farming or whatever things out there. Right. And so like, like that's what I thought, because I was the meme, men, men used to go to war.
Now they trade meme coins like this is the, this is what we got. I really think that because I like evolutionary, we're not that evolved. Right.
And then so we are like evolutionary. We are not that evolved. And then so like what about men now? Like they don't go to war.
And then so they're sitting in the basement. They're sitting in the small cages, like especially during like COVID. Right.
And and so that's why my theory, when it comes to the DeFi summer is the access like testosterone in the form of like financial populism. And yeah, so probably this is like a different angle from many others. And then we have access testosterone, we have access liquidity, and then we have this financial populism forming up right from like, so from Gamestop and all that.
So it's all this like three forces combined. And like that, so that made like DeFi summer boom. And yeah, so I think like DeFi summer.
Yeah. So we did a lot of things. But that's my key takeaway on understanding like the male psychology.
Yeah. I liked it. That's the first time I've heard like a like an EvoBio theory as to why.
I've heard various renditions of like the financial nihilism mixed in with financial nihilism would be more for like meme coins in 2023, 2024. But like, yeah, I think that's the first time I've heard the biological substrate get put in there for like excess male testosterone, high risk taking, stuck inside, bored. What are they going to do? It's actually it's actually a pretty bulletproof and retroactively correct thesis.
Dovey, what do you make of DeFi, the status of DeFi now? I think that the recent like balancer hack kind of frightened people again. And it really sparked that conversation around essentially the risk that you're taking for a lot of DeFi and like the amount of like DeFi hacks that there are compared to like the yield that you kind of see on, you know, what a lot of people consider to be like safe investments of like, oh, well, I'll just park a lot of stable coins or a lot of ETH or a lot of something somewhere and get like a five to seven percent return. And I think people have at least very recently post-balancer hack that that idea has fallen out of favor a bit.
How do you how do you see DeFi kind of progressing? And Athena also had recently. And Athena. So probably we have to take a step back on on like the capital allocators like profile, because at this cycle, like the capital allocators profile like change quite a bit.
Like we still have our like crypto native like people and like on-chain capital, right? And and then but like ETF and like all the other like traffic instruments and really just a change by the capital allocators mix. And and like that's why also we haven't see any like actual like just like any altcoins in this cycle. And I have like and I think I long said about probably like 20, like 2024 or early early 2024.
I have been talking about this publicly that I don't think we're going to have the same like DeFi season or the altcoin season like this cycle because because that because ETF is not converting the retail to like like it's like two different channels nowadays. Right now we have like the traffic channel. We have like the DeFi on-chain channel, but the traffic channel is driving by ETF.
But like ETF is not converting the retail slash institutional money like on to on-chain like just like like there's so there's no like a path there in between. So ETF like basically like the ETF flows and the crypto native flows and the crypto on-chain flows are in two different liquidity pools. And we have seen projects like Athena and then probably undo like doing some just like DeFi stuff.
But the more retail investors like buys ETF that the less that they're buying like all the like so like the more like the more traffic flow flow into ETF. And then so like the so I think the less of the so the less of the liquidity will be there for the DeFi kind of like DeFi pool and like DeFi and DeFi liquidity. So the interaction is just not there.
Yeah, so like that's what I think we are lacking. So like this cycle, so I remember clearly that last cycle like we have seen. So OK, so in the 2017 in the 2017 cycle, we have like ICOs and then ICOs are the direct on-ramp for the marginal new money into centralized exchanges.
Right. And 2020, 2021, we have like both the DeFi and both DeFi and NFT. And the both the DeFi and NFT, we have seen the new users like deposit fiat directly to the centralized exchanges and centralized exchanges that change for stable coins like Ether and like directly withdraw that and then to participate to the crypto native speculations like naming like DeFi farming, like NFT whitelisting, like whatever, like whatever kind of stuff.
And I remember clearly that in 2021 and then we we are seeing like a massive pattern when there's a Coinbase withdrawal and went directly to OpenSea and like many of these direct withdrawals from like CEXs like to do all the so to so to so to have like all different on-chain operations. And also Moon, so Moon, so like the company MoonPay was also like took off also due to this on-ramp demand for APN into NFTs. I think like this cycle, we only have like Memecoin trading, like if we think about like where are the marginal, like like where are the marginal users for the on-chain activities? And then we have like Memecoin trading and prediction market users are not so like because the prediction market thing is like like the OI is relatively small and then like the active traders, like many of them are just browsing like the market itself.
I think like the actual users, like the absolute number of like users like cannot compare with like what like the DeFi summer as I last time, or at least not as good as this like NFT craze. Yeah, so, so I think just like the traffic money are not doing many like DeFi stuff, right? And so we are seeing just like the crypto, like the crypto residual money are are like sitting on like DeFi, like Hyperliquid you can also consider as DeFi, but it's not the same DeFi as 2021, because like from like design perspective, like Hyperliquid has some improvement. From like new ideas and but essentially is still kind of like similar and and so they have their own like HLP pool.
Yeah, but it's still a, it is so I wouldn't consider Hyperliquid as a full on DeFi. And like there's still some like centralized element around that. Yeah.
Yeah, so I think like that's just like a very like long like thought process when I think about what happened to like DeFi like this cycle. And also we don't have any new DeFi primitive like this cycle, right? And like Athena, it is not a DeFi primitive. So Athena essentially it is like a hedge fund.
So it's like a tokenized hedge fund, right? So it's like a tokenized hedge fund with like a single strategy, like that's the delta neutral strategy. And many of this like DeFi thing happened recently, like the balancer one is more of like a DeFi problem, but the stream finance, it is not a DeFi problem. It is like an off-chain manager, it's like an off-chain strategy.
So like a stream finance problem is like a transparency problem because it is raising money on-chain, but like using the money off-chain. So it does not have the necessary like transparency there. And so like that's why we have seen like the blow up there, right? So like to Tom's question, I think I'm still bullish in DeFi, but we really have to make like DeFi plug into like all the mess.
So we really have to think about what is the proper way to plug DeFi into the traffic distribution channel and into all probably like new banking. And so it's just that we have to broaden the upper funnel for all the DeFi application because currently like the upper funnel, it is not being broadened like this cycle for most of the DeFi products out there. Like that's my feeling.
One interesting interpretation I hear about where things are headed with DeFi and maybe not ETFs, but a good segue to the digital asset treasury companies, right? So the original Michael Saylor deity maybe doesn't get into much of the DeFi space. But then when you look at stuff like Sharpling that I know you guys have been involved or Tom Lee, this capital is not going to just be idle. It's definitely going to be allocated to on-chain activities.
And one of the interpretation I heard is that ultimately this would be the catalyst for much more interest in altcoin season in general and renewed interest in DeFi. Because ultimately, once we exhaust this interest in just having capital sucked into a dot, you'll have retail looking to outrun, outperform what would be the premium that you can get on a dot. So that could be a spark.
But what do you think would be a lever otherwise? Like what do you see as a potential lever to get started a new DeFi or alt season from where we're at today? I'm not sure whether we are going to have the same alt season and the return of the altcoin is going to be extremely dispersed. And that's just the reality because the market is maturing. And then once the market is maturing and the participants of the market will be looking for some kind of valuation model, I think most of the altcoin, there's just no proper valuation model out there.
Even if I have seen a good valuation model when it comes to DEXs or PERP DEXs, you can basically do this regression model on OI and market cap. But many of these altcoins, they're basically just a speculative vehicle and how I can evaluate it. So that is the biggest problem when I just chat with my Wall Street longshore funds who are more sophisticated when it comes to capital allocation.
I think we can still do this at memecoin stuff, basically trade everything as a memecoin or as a pure narrative vehicle. That's fine. But I think crypto de-cycle, just like the altcoin de-cycle, not crypto specifically, because Bitcoin is probably in its own land already and becoming a macro asset.
I think crypto de-cycle, altcoin de-cycle is just being triple-killed, triple-killed by AI stock and triple-killed by AI stock, AI slash tech stock, zero-day options and also traditional market. Because previously, most of the altcoin is just serving the purpose of pure speculation. But now all the retail can speculate things that they can relate better, they can understand better, and they can probably entertain better because the prediction market essentially is an infotainment.
So I think we are not going to see the same altcoin season as before because the altcoin energy, the same altcoin energy has been diluted by so many other vehicles out there. I think it's pretty apparent, especially this year and even last year as well, for our liquid team, because for our liquid side of the practice, they are not just trading crypto, they're more like a macro fund. And whenever they want to have crypto exposure, they will actually trade CB stock or micro strategy because it has much better volatility than Bitcoin.
And so what worries me is Bitcoin probably already graduated from this speculative asset. But when it comes to most other assets in our space, and then so being like a speculative asset, if the volatility is completely crushed by Bitcoin,
And like, even ourselves, like when we want to have like crypto exposure, we don't, we don't, we don't like, we don't, we don't trade native Bitcoin, because the, because the Coinbase stock and MicroStrategy stock and then MetaPlanet stock has a much better volatility, yeah. This is something I wanted to ask you about. You've got a pretty solid, you know, rap sheet of experience in investing, picking founders.
I saw you post something to Twitter recently that was talking about like dark triad personalities in crypto. I'm quite interested to hear more of your take on this dark triad issue that we've got. Yeah, so I posted this, I think, 2022, right.
And so I think like in our space, so as an early stage investor on our, so on our, on our venture side, and when it comes to early stage investment, and it's all about a founder, and like, there's like nothing else more than the, like, there's nothing else more than the founder itself. But like we have discussed, and like crypto is a, like, crypto is basically a kid between, so crypto is the kid of like financial populism, consumerism, and also probably like tech libertarian, right. And I think historically, we have seen like, like evil leaders.
And so like, so this kind of like evil leaders, and, and I have, and I have been thinking hard on why we are seeing so many evil leaders, like in crypto, like even more than finance somehow, because like finance, like the close proximity, like the, like the closest proximity is that the finance industry. But probably I wasn't there when in early stage of like finance, probably like that's also the same thing. But I think there's also another compounding effort, like this like compounding factors when, when, when it comes to like the emergence of like all this like evil leaders is because the influencer, like, so this influencer and like social media culture, so that really just that facilitated them to be more like this, so, so really facilitated them to just like gain the clout, right.
And because that in our space, because in our space is so, so, so because like, in our space, and many of the things like the average, like the average people, like the average crowd is always attracted to like, who's getting the most attention, regardless of the virtual. So like, that's why I decided to kind of like dodge higher personality or like someone who's a very performative. And then so like, like, just like, like, because like, like the narcissist or like the psychopath, and then so they can be extremely charming online as well, right.
So and then like, they probably tend to be overcharming online. And then like, because when it comes to online, when it comes to online communication, like you are losing, like all the nonverbal cues, and then so you basically cannot read their facial expression. So it's very, very hard for them to hear their tones.
So like, that's what all this dark, so all this dark, so this dark, triad personality, and so they all know how to put themselves in the center of attention really, really well. And I think the whole crypto space is basically largely built on top of like Twitter, right. And, and so if you are a dark triad person, and like, you know how to easily like disguise and then like just hide the true nature, like behind the screen.
And then also the audience, like the audience basically have like goldfish memory, right. And then so they don't remember like what happened from like, from like last like 10 minutes. And so like this, that makes it even harder to like distinguish them from like actual genuine, so like actual genuine, like authentic founders.
And then, and then many of these authentic founders, and they are kind of like quiet online as well. So like, that's also like average selection. And so you will have like all this super loud, dark, so super, super loud.
And there's a performative like personality. And, and then so like, they can get all the attention. And nowadays, attention basically means like social proof, right.
And so I think that that's why, like, that's why when it comes to like crypto, and then so we have seen so many these like dark personality, like influencers, like getting online, and then just like getting traction, and then like scamming people, and over, like over and over again. Yeah. Yeah, no, the internet is the perfect place for like your, your three, or particularly like narcissism and psychopathy.
Machiavelliansim also, but like, yeah, the internet is like a really good forcing function of like, you can remove so many of the constraints that prevent that like interpersonally, with normal human relationships. But moving away from the more dark side. Dovey, I was really interested in your longevity arc.
I see that you've got like a Twitter alt that's focused on, on longevity, longevity and health. What's what started you down like longevity, health rabbit hole? And what are like the, the top things that you think that you've found to be the most either rewarding or most like high leverage? Okay, so I think we talked about at the core value principle level, and why like the whole thing of longevity and transhumanism is somehow can like tie back to the original cyber conspiracy of like being like a solid individual, blah, blah, blah. I think like more for me and myself.
Yeah, so okay, I think it started from a pretty like just I think it so it started like my so my passion for longevity, because I don't know, is longevity per se. So just my passion for discovering myself, like, so I started the whole journey from just purely discovering myself. And then it's a very like geeky interest.
And, and, and also, like, thanks to my parents, like, thanks to my parents. And so they actually, we have many, we have, we have many daughters in our family. And I almost, and I was almost like pre-med as well.
And but my mom was like, don't be a doctor. And so it's a pretty bad lifestyle. But I still, but I still just have like a very high interest when it comes to anything about health, about biology, about human physiology, things like that.
And also my parents have been like, they, so they, so they keep my every hormone level and like health report, and like everything like since my first, like, since when I had my first period, like, that's like back to probably a 1415. And so, and I have this like giant database and this Google chart about all my hormone level, and then so how they move along the day, like, so how they move like over years and like things like that. And then also, I began to analyze the trends and changes, like, in the spreadsheet, which naturally evolved into a very like comprehensive, like self-qualification, like self-quantification, like projects I have.
And then so I even built my health OS in Notion. And like now with like GPT, I can basically dump all the data there. And then so I've been trying all the things like, like CGM, like continuous glucose monitoring, and like very early on all the rain and very, and also very early on, like metformin, like GLP, like SGLT2, like all that kind of stuff.
And then so I have been taking metformin for like, probably for a decade now. Yeah. So ever since college.
I thought people stopped with metformin recently. It's became like, for some reason, I saw also Brian Johnson was mentioning that is. I think like, yeah.
So, well, so that's why in order to do things properly, you need to understand yourself well. And so for me, I just, I'm microdosing metformin and like 500 milligrams. And I think, yeah.
So like, you have to understand your own, just like biomarker and all the physiology, like baseline and like benchmark. And yeah. So like, if you are doing like heavy lifting every day, and then so you don't like, because metformin is also like a micro-stressor to you, right? And then so you don't want to overdose like metformin and, but it's really individual.
So it's very like individual by individual. So like, so I just don't think there's like, okay, I can just listen to some influencer, like talk about something. And also GLP-1 as well, right? Just that GLP-1, like I will not take GLP-1 myself because, so first of all, like it's mainly for cosmetic purpose.
Like if it's for me, because I'm normal on like BMI, I'm very high muscle mass and all that. So, and then just like, even for like cosmetic purpose, and if I really want to shed more, like shed like 10 more pounds, and then so I wouldn't use a GLP-1. Like the, like the issue being is like GLP-1 is, it is also like, so like, it is also a hormone, right? And then so if you just like taking GLP-1 and then so it will like suppress and it will suppress and down regulate your own capability to secrete GLP-1.
So I'm always in for a more like natural way, not like a quick hack. Because I think like currently the problem with all this longevity hype is like everyone is looking for like a quick hack. But there's nothing as this and then wouldn't count to your like body and like, and wouldn't count to your body and long-term health.
And so I think like today most people are being caught in like two major traps. And like the first trap is just like not knowing what to do. And then many just lack like even basic like health knowledge.
And then probably coupled with unlimited resources. And then so I have seen my friends just like being less ascribed like, like insulin, like, so like insulin immediately. And then, but when like early insulin resistance, that could have been easily identified and my reverse, like just with my lifestyle change, right? And because I, the current healthcare system, it is not healthcare, it's basically like sick care.
And many of the doctor don't even order like OGTT, like which can easily identify insulin resistance and like during just a routine checkup. And I think on the other hand, like there's also the fault, like it's like a kind of a false hope. And like, even for the one with like financial resources.
And so they basically just want some like 10,000 stem cell treatment, like to various fancy peptides, blah, blah, blah. I think essentially like to say the baseline for longevity is just a back to the basis, right? And then, so can you fix your sleep, right? And can you fix your sleep, like the quality sleep, like consistent exercise, and then like the very balanced diet, and just like don't overeat. And many of these are probably coming from over-consuming.
I think like if you can master like these like three areas, but that's already like good enough, right? And then so probably on top of that, like you can do like supplements and then you can do like fancy stuff, like I have my sauna house, like at the backyard, and I have my soft shell, like so, and I have my soft shell, a hyperbaric chamber at home as well. Like you can do all this fancy stuff, but like you have to fix your like basis first. Yeah.
Yeah. I feel like it's a very, very common thing in not just like tech scene or people with high resources, but almost everywhere. It's just like the superfluous effort that gets applied at these kind of like tiny things that don't really move the needle of like, I'll get this supplement or I'll do this thing.
And it's like, eh, if sleep, exercise, and diet is not fantastic, you don't have a base to build anything on. Yeah. I've seen like, I have a few friends, wealthy crypto friends who are, they have all of the expensive gear.
They take a lot of supplements, but they're kind of overweight and are not taking care of. What's the point, right? What's the point, you know, and then try to do Ozempic to balance it. It was like, like, it's like the retardation.
That is the thing. So feel the, and this is something we'll, we're getting close to time now, Dovey, and I'll let you go because we'll run an outro in a bit, but I am interested. So, you know, Daniel was saying that you actually managed to live quite a balanced lifestyle considering the amount of like stuff that you do, you know, even though you are, I'm actually stunned that you have actually managed to acquire 15 years of data and do that.
I'm so not, I'm so not that kind of person. So I actually struggled to relate. I get so caught up in, in more, I'm less of a data guy, put it that way.
And so like the field of longevity can get pushed into like, you know, optimization a fair bit. What do you see is like most important stuff, like outside of like physical optimization that works in like the longevity stack? I would say like brain health, like just like brain health is everything. And so I'm, so I think like the next step for me is like art and space and then blah, blah, blah.
And then, so I would really dig into the two end spectrum of the brain. And one is the early development of the brain and then from like age one to like age five. And then like, that's when before all the pruning happened and also towards the end of the brain, right? So like there's Alzheimer's, like, like Parkinson's, like all that.
So I think like brain health is everything because we are basically manifestation of like the brain, right? And then, so like that is the only important organ that, so like, just think about this thought experiment. So I had, and I had this conversation with all my robotic company and imagine if you're a human and then you can see like bare minimum, like life, whatever. And, but you have to only keep one organ, like art in the brain.
And then, so like you have the, you will need to have the brain there, but like art and brain, and then what is the other organ that you want to keep, right? So it's your hand, it's your eyes, it's your leg, or it's your ear, it's your mouth, like whatever. So like, so, so basically coming from this like, like illumination mental model, so can really help you to understand like what's important when it comes to your like body health. And then, so yeah, so like brain health is like definitely like absolutely important when it comes to, so when it comes to, so when it comes to longevity.
But that's a pretty big topic, right? And then, so like there's a neuroscience and like there's a psychological development. There's also a lot of things related to our immune system as well. Like we have this brain gut, like, so this brain gut, like asses, and then like all this endocrine system is basically controlled by the brain as well.
And, but like, there's also like environmental feedback loop for the endocrine imbalance. And, and so I think just like, I think at the end of the day, longevity is about, just like, so longevity is like a whole system work. And, and so it's very hard for me to pick, like if I have to add something on top of my current stack and it will be brain health.
But I think the brain health part needs to start from like babies. It is not just like, okay, so I can probably improve for that. Because there's not a lot of things we can improve like currently, because our prefrontal cortex is pretty much well developed.
And you, so you, so you, so you won't be able to produce more neurons, right? And so I really think it has to start from the baby. And, but the thing is that there's literally, like literally like zero thing about a guideline for like new parents about baby brain development, right? And yeah, so, so like that's something that I'm, so that's something that I'm still learning. And so I have been talking with many professors out there on like the, so, so like why guys have a much higher, like tendency to like develop like schizo, right? But that woman is much more prone to like depression.
So like, that's also related to our brain structure, just a different gender, like have like different like brain structure. And it also relate to our like hormonal, so relate to our hormonal response. And, and yeah, so it's a, so it's a pretty deep topic.
And so I think I will spend my, like once we like conquer space. And then, so I think in parallel, I will just say starting to, so I will start to spend more time on that area. Yeah.
Dovey, thanks so much for coming on the Frontier podcast. It's been amazing. Where do you want people to go find you on the internet and what would you like them to go look at? Yeah.
And you guys can just go to X at doveywan. So just like @doveywan.
This has been great. All right. We'll run it.
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